How the discussion of Infidel went

So we had a good discussion of Infidel. We talked quite a bit about the Netherlands and how they do things. It's quite amazing the way the Dutch gave money and shelter to the immigrants. It's a very generous policy but hard to imagine being able to continue.

Ann M and Gert B are both Dutch immigrants themselves, or first generation, and had quite a bit to say about Holland. Some of their relatives seem to feel a little besieged by the new immigrants. They also talked about how the Dutch don't have a mechanism for assimilation. As we talked more about what that meant, the perception I got is that the Dutch tend to stay within their own circles and don't bring in newcomers, so the immigrants tend to form their own circles and they don't become Dutch in the way that immigrants to the US tend to become American. Ann said her relatives are amazed at how much we in our church visit each other and talk with each other; that's not done over there. They also brought up that there is more of a class society in Holland.

We talked a while about the way Islam is different from other religions in that it seems like their goal is to make everyone become Islam or those people are infidels, while other religions do try to convert people but they don't consider non-believers infidels in the way that Islam, especially Islam extremists, do. Someone said they heard that Ayaan is writing another book exploring the way Islam could be "done" without going to the extreme, and how that would look. Sounds like it might be interesting to read.

One thing we didn't seem to be able to come to a conclusion about is, so what do we do? We all agreed that Ayaan seems to be saying, "Wake up!" and that we're being naive about the Islamic religion and what the Islamic people want. But if we agree that, yes, we do seem to be naive about that, and, yes, we need to realize that their goals are frightening goals and threaten our safety, but then what? What should we do? Should we change the way we handle immigration? Is that some way to make sure people assimilate? Is there a way to ensure that people who come to our country conform to some basic practices and beliefs?

I read them what Joel had written about a "cut flower" society. I think there's a lot to think about in that but it didn't get much response. We also had the questions Dad sent and might have touched on them a little bit but I think there's actually a lot more that we could talk about in this book.

Betsy M voiced a feeling I had, too, which was it made her feel like she needed to figure out how she could help all the women living the life that the author described. I felt like that, too. How can I help to prevent others from being circumcised in that way, or forced into marriages, or treated so badly? They said the author's website has a way to donate towards her own security expenses. Here in the US she has to pay for her own bodyguards and security so you can donate towards that.

She is a brave woman to say what she says. Someone at the book club said they'd heard her give a talk called, "Let's say what it is" where she said straight out things about the issues being the Islam beliefs.

It was a good discussion but I wish we could have more!