How the discussion of Infidel went

So we had a good discussion of Infidel. We talked quite a bit about the Netherlands and how they do things. It's quite amazing the way the Dutch gave money and shelter to the immigrants. It's a very generous policy but hard to imagine being able to continue.

Ann M and Gert B are both Dutch immigrants themselves, or first generation, and had quite a bit to say about Holland. Some of their relatives seem to feel a little besieged by the new immigrants. They also talked about how the Dutch don't have a mechanism for assimilation. As we talked more about what that meant, the perception I got is that the Dutch tend to stay within their own circles and don't bring in newcomers, so the immigrants tend to form their own circles and they don't become Dutch in the way that immigrants to the US tend to become American. Ann said her relatives are amazed at how much we in our church visit each other and talk with each other; that's not done over there. They also brought up that there is more of a class society in Holland.

We talked a while about the way Islam is different from other religions in that it seems like their goal is to make everyone become Islam or those people are infidels, while other religions do try to convert people but they don't consider non-believers infidels in the way that Islam, especially Islam extremists, do. Someone said they heard that Ayaan is writing another book exploring the way Islam could be "done" without going to the extreme, and how that would look. Sounds like it might be interesting to read.

One thing we didn't seem to be able to come to a conclusion about is, so what do we do? We all agreed that Ayaan seems to be saying, "Wake up!" and that we're being naive about the Islamic religion and what the Islamic people want. But if we agree that, yes, we do seem to be naive about that, and, yes, we need to realize that their goals are frightening goals and threaten our safety, but then what? What should we do? Should we change the way we handle immigration? Is that some way to make sure people assimilate? Is there a way to ensure that people who come to our country conform to some basic practices and beliefs?

I read them what Joel had written about a "cut flower" society. I think there's a lot to think about in that but it didn't get much response. We also had the questions Dad sent and might have touched on them a little bit but I think there's actually a lot more that we could talk about in this book.

Betsy M voiced a feeling I had, too, which was it made her feel like she needed to figure out how she could help all the women living the life that the author described. I felt like that, too. How can I help to prevent others from being circumcised in that way, or forced into marriages, or treated so badly? They said the author's website has a way to donate towards her own security expenses. Here in the US she has to pay for her own bodyguards and security so you can donate towards that.

She is a brave woman to say what she says. Someone at the book club said they'd heard her give a talk called, "Let's say what it is" where she said straight out things about the issues being the Islam beliefs.

It was a good discussion but I wish we could have more!

Some discussion questions & comments about Infidel

My dad's bookclub read Infidel and he sent me the questions they discussed:

1. Are all Christian women freed from this ill treatment?

2. Are there any connecting/contact points between Christianity and Islam?

3. How does Islam’s doctrine about the Quran preclude any easy modification or modernization of Islam?

4. Does this presentation of Islam have any impact on our view of the war in Iraq or our war against Al Qaeda? Is a “conversation” with a Muslim country’s leaders possible or advisable according to Ayaan Hirsi Ali ?

5. How would we compare the sexual morality of the Dutch with that of Islam? How about the US view of sexual morality? Christian morality?

6. What do you think of the Dutch idea and practice of tolerance? How tolerant should or can a people or nation be? Can tolerance (Dutch) and intolerance (Muslims in Holland) co-exist? Church?

7. How much should we “fear” Islam?

8. What can or must we as Christians, as individuals or a church or a nation, do in this struggle with Islam? Are we morally responsible to do something/anything about these obviously immoral practices of Islam? Is missionary work a possibility in Muslim countries? Cp. Fr. Vincenso

I asked him what the reference "Cp. Fr. Vincenso" was and he sent this reply:

Fr. Vicenza Succi was our auxiliary priest in Izmir. He was a Franciscan priest, spoke 6 languages, had been in Turkey for 20 or more years, a simply wonderful person. His church was St Anthony’s. St. Anthony of Padua is the patron saint of the lost, poor, etc. Fr. did work with the Muslim Turks, provided them food and clothing. However, I do not think he had a single convert in his church. His parishioners were all people of European extraction who worked or just lived in Izmir. A Muslim once threw an axe at him as he came out of his house. We had two young Muslim women convert to Christian by way of our services in the Cathedral. Both were baptized in the Aegean Sea. I think I wrote a little about her in my book. Still, any attempt to convert Muslims to Christianity is very difficult and can be dangerous. I often think of Fr. Vicenza. Whenever we met, he always kissed three times, and the same when he said goodbye. I’ll never forget him.

My brother Joel also made this comment:

Good questions from dad re: "The Infidel."I believe contemporary Islam challenges people in the pluralistic western nations to realize that unless they recognize the religious roots of their society, they have no rational basis to defend their society. They may still choose to defend a "cut flower"* society on the basis of personal preference, but that's not the same thing as having a rational basis to believe that you live in a just society that is worth defending and developing. I believe Benedict XVI is trying to call Europe and the western world to recognize the Christian roots of the western world, which is the dominant social force in globalization. And in our own small ways we can live with integrity and pray for peace.

All good things to think about for our discussion.

*I had to look up "cut flower" and it appears to mean a society or country which was founded on certain beliefs but no longer is grounded in those beliefs -- so it's "cut" from its roots.